(Matthew 27:45). Even though Gamaliel was the one who stated in Acts 5:34-39 that if this Jesus movement were from God there would be no way to stop it, they should just let it run its course, Paul was still influenced heavily by the persecution mindset that the rest of the Sanhedrin had. And the head Mormon Apostle. Jesus poured his life into the 12 Apostles for 3 years very personally training them to be the leaders of the church, and Jesus chose Peter as first among equals. I want to bring my hippie friends to church- but how to I explain to them that its taboo to mention Pauls sins and doctrinal errors in church? Islam is the truth, Allah Akbar/God is Greatest. That the latter paid especial attention to study is shown by the remarkable classification of pupils ascribed to him, for which a classification of the fish of Palestine formed a basis (Ab. Having other ideas that moves us away from the scripture is tantamount to adding or subtracting from the Word which we are forbidden to do. About The Author Tovia Singer - Rabbi Tovia Singer is well known as the Founder and Director of Outreach Judaism, an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist Christian groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. In fact Paul was called Shaliach and Yeshua was called Rabbi. He studied under the best Jewish teachers including the well-respected teacher, Gamaliel . Dear Philip, Below are quotes and links from two other blog gentlemen (Christopher, and UnashamedofJesus) who disagree with each other. And 1 as 1. Dont ask us! And we can but make some comparisons in ourselves. three years His claim before . Jesus was asked twice, by two different men, the same basic question about which is the most important or greatest commandment in the Law. I have also posted dozens of articles on the literature of the Second Temple Period, all of which ought to interest you. because he said so. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. and to make a point in this conversation,where did you get the idea that Saul (Paul) was Jewish.? Somehow Barnabas who was at the Pentecost knew Saul! http://www.problemswithpaul.com/Apostle_Paul.html. Answer Gamaliel was a first-century Jewish rabbi and a leader in the Jewish Sanhedrin. I wonder what would happen if by his own mouth ,he will say Im Roman now what do you call someone that say things and then change .. In reality youd be considered a Judaizer ( an no its not what Christians think it is because that definition is clearly wrong) and thrown out of the synagogues. Some of the trials were limited to the high priest and his inner circle, it is likely the entire 70 member Sanhedrin met to dal with Jesus. In fact in the book of John Jesus is pointed out as a Pharisee. Love is all you need. He says he is "of the tribe of Benjamin.". This became an issue in front of the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). Ibn Taymiyya is the first I know of who said it in writing but obviously it was known as no Hadith mentioned Paul or a 13th Apostle, did name the 12. When P. Long said above that he was an ultra conservative reacting to what he perceived as a dangerous liberal view, it made me think of this situation more in terms of the present times. There will always necessarily be a need for supposition and inference. Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it (Proverbs 22.6). Same question; What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? Dang, I wrote that and didnt respond to your last point. I dont think breakthrough in our faith randomly happens. I admit this is all speculation and I dont have a shred of evidence for any of this but it makes me wonder if Paul was trying to start something extraordinary within Judaism (As he mentions in his defense in Acts 22) and God harnessed that ambition for the glory and advancement of His Church. He fathered Simeon ben Gamliel, who was named for Gamaliel's father, and a daughter, who married a priest named Simon ben Nathanael. They make Paul the center, not Jesus. Im not sure if there is any evidence of Paul having any athletic prowess on the field but his understanding of Greek athletics is well documented. This comes from inconsciously believing Pauls mantra, the Evangelical Mantra, that All Scripure is God-breathed, and falsely assuming Paul was referring to every word in the 66 Books of the Bible. Jesus never said right is wrong, He never said wrong is right. Peter testifies of this in 2 Peter 3:16. First, Gamaliel was one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Note also that there were more than one Rabbi named Gamaliel. He was absolutely brilliant. The message of The 11 (The narrow gate), The eleven disciples went to Galilee Where Jesus had told them to go They heard His voice and obeyed His will Despite uncertainty down below, Jesus spoke to them at length He wasnt really a Tweeter Only 3 of them wrote Scripture Matthew John and Peter, Feed my sheep said Jesus, for though Heaven and earth will pass away I have the words of eternal life and My words will never pass away, Enter through the narrow gate The voice of Jesus through the eleven Believe in Jesus through their message And eat from the tree of life in heaven. 1973 Inside the mind of a Jesus Person. Another aspect of Hillel. Not others in the future who will follow the risen Jesus Christ. ), STEP 1) Paul said; I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man. [1 Timothy 1:13] (Response- Those were Sauls sins, before Jesus called him. As an athlete and sports enthusiast, the references really stuck out to me and are passages of scripture that I have read multiple times. Polhill goes on to talk about Paul studying Greek and by him studying under Gameliel and Hellenism, he would be around the gymnasium. Meaning people who believed in the Moshiach as Yeshua. Why never quesiton his testimony about himself that he never intentionally disobeyed God, is the sinless ever-virgin, and said; I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some? Instead, it puts their focus on their one special man above all others his personality, words and teachings, character, life example, feelings, experience, intentions, mind, will, emotions, etc. [erase erase erase], Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. Then again youre the one creating a construct that Paul was Shammai. ). Yes you clearly are removing them from Jewish culture and using Constantine-Christianity and replacement theology to float most of your website. and as long as the food was not sacrificed to idols and was kosher you could eat with gentiles. 5:7) Paul realizes he has missed The Fast in Acts 27:9 while on the prison ship. Acts presents the evangelizing apostle and church leader Barnabas as a model of integrity and character. This also convinces me that even though it seems he split from Gamaliel, early on, that did not change him into something completely opposite. Do you have a reference handy mentioning Gamaliel in the Clementine lit? This is your only warning before being banned for incivility. He was raised in a Jewish society and home because everyone in the entire New Testament are Jews (or converts) who followed Torah. It is interesting in seeing the difference in view points of Saul and Gamaliel. They are Right On! Paul, Silas, and Timothy desired to enter Asia to spread the gospel there, but the Holy Spirit prevented them. Im horrified that youre taking Jewish writings and making crazy stories out of them. 3) Paul exaggerating his ministry in Ephesus claiming it was 3 years night and day with tears when really it was 3 months in the synagogue and 2 years daily in a lecture hall. Paul probably understood Judaism better than all of these false teachers put together. Beware of the NAR whale its really a killer whale with a man-made horn strapped on top. That is the basic idea of the heavy-duty seminary language we were being trained in. (Paul insisted that all the workers show respect for him by addressing him as Boss Paul.) Paul called the team of painters together and told them: Boys, we need to paint this garage and house. Well Maybe that spirit isnt the Holy Spirit of Jesus, maybe you are bound in spirit by the evil spirit of Paul the Pharisee. That is the order of address in near eastern culture and especially the Sanhedrin, being the Nazarite or the one ran by corrupted Pharisee and Sadducee. 1. They also believed gentiles could convert and be in covenant but there needed to be structure to convert. Responding to a question from Peter, Jesus said to them: you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. [Matthew 19:28]. FWIW, the name is spelled Ron Moseley. I will call him a liar . The later evidence of the Mishnah implies an Aramaic commentary on the Hebrew Bible, but that dates to AD 250. But Pauls teachings drive one up the wall. There were several rebellions in Jerusalem regarding the building of gymnasiums. This status gave him special privileges, and in some cases saved him from abuse (Acts 22:25-29). Wright (and others) point out that Gamaliel II seems more, er, pacifist Acts, while Paul seems to want to zealously pursue those who are accusing the High Priest of killing an innocent man. This is a question our experts keep getting from time to time. I am not sure God as incarnate is the issue, that is certainly not what is preached in Acts 2-3. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel?, As a devout young Jewish man who was taught by quite a peaceful, que sera sera, member of the Sanhedrin, it is somewhat surprising that Paul (Saul at the time) would be one to persecute Jewish Christians so vehemently. Same question; Specifically, what were Pauls specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? A scribe would be among the most highly educated in Judaism, and since at the feet of Gamaliel implies a mentoring relationship, it seems to me that a near-equivalent would be a serious specialized Masters Program, if not a PhD. You have a rather closed worldview and are blind to what I have said. He uses these references quite often throughout many of his books in the NT. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Pauls education. You are extremely insulting to me when you ignore what was written and only hear what your own prejudice allows. (check out wikipedia on yeshiva, that will give you a feel for a Torah / talmudic education, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshiva), I could careless who Saul aka Paul studied with ,the fact that someone studies does not hold anything within that person thinking or make up. There were a plethora of Pharisee within the Sanhedrin that agreed with Yeshua and Yeshua himself is a Pharisee(plethora of verses that state this as well). There are some points I agree and disagree with. Silence since March now its June. Very much the contrary. When did Paul study under Gamaliel? These would be lofty words for a law abiding Pharisee to be speaking and Paul obviously saw Christ as the laws fulfillment. I will punt the description of the Shammites back to Wright, I have read extensively on the topic, but the characterization he gives in *What Saint Paul Really Thought* is a bit more than I think the evidence can bear. ), STEP 2) Paul said; Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst. [1 Timothy 1:15] (Response- Sin is alwasy specific. (Soon, in the Logos Library!) I pray that you will be blessed with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Gods love through the cross for you. when did congress pass the noahide laws; what is monzo building society account? What is the meaning of Tentmaker? I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. Jesus came to fulfill Law and Prophets and He will. Being a Pharisee did not disqualify you from believing in Yeshua. Tha A in TanAch. I think we take Pauls claim here WAY too seriously. Mosley is actually studied under Flusser. To think that all Jewish people were completely unified is to share the same fantasy Christians have about the early church. Christian Pharisees were not unknown, even if we cannot know for sure if the wishful thinking of the traditions is true about Gamaliel and Nicodemus. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments. [Matthew 22:36-40, Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18], But in contrast with Jesus, Paul the Pharisee didnt know the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus. These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. To which Paul replied, youre fired. Paul then took his team of painters, and started painting the garage and the house. Yet he verbatim stated who he was and no one in the court said otherwise but well take your word for it. No one in the pages of the Bible ever said or wrote that all Scripture, or the Bible, is all truly Gods words. The sentence begins with So in the NIV and Amplified Bibles, and Therefore in the NASB and King James Bibles, which ties 7:12 to the previous sentences. Benjamin was a euphemism for Herodian Jew btw so Pharisee or not Paul was loyal to Herod, his friend was foster brother of Herod the tetrarch or Herod something, but Herod. The Tanak wasnt the issue. To date, there is either historical nor tradional evidence to support Sauls presence. We cannot prove that Judas was present at that time, and we cannot prove that Matthias was absent at that time when Jesus spoke those words. Jesus didnt make PART of this one verse out of context into The Golden Rule or one rule. Jesus did not use the term Golden Rule, its simply a tradition of men. How long will you waver between two opinions? I interpret 6 months of silence to mean: even if no one here has the courage to agree with me publicly, no one in the world can open a Bible and prove me wrong from the Bible text on these specific points Ive raised here. Provocative. Human teachers and influences, for some at least, did not matter. Eryk, have you ever heard of dual citizenship? He was brilliant and a top-educated person of his day. Clearly youve never taken hebrew or greek in your life. If one lies and is decieved that it somehow abounds to Gods glory, that lying isnt a sin ESPECIALLY where God is concerned, what WONT they lie about? So Law, Prophets, scripture is what it is divided into. In other words, had God been preparing Saul for this breakthrough prior to Acts chapter 9? So when Paul wrote his two letters to the Church in Corinth, who was overseeing all aspects of the church? Good question, although in Acts Gamaliel is more lenient than Paul with respect to the followers of Jesus. I would like to check that reference if possible. In fact, it almost sounds as if he is name-dropping in order to impress people! This is very similar to The Beatles- All you need is love. Sages of the time didn't have formal recognition or title. I see zero Biblical basis for the idea that Paul trained Apollos, or that Paul granted specific authority to any other individual in Corinth other than himself. Rather than the many trails of supposition. [Acts 19:21 22:21] . I am not at all removing Paul (or Jesus) from the culture of the Second Temple period, but I certainly more aware of what was happening in the first century that you appear to be. I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. The first thing was that they might be with Him personally, together, for His entire earthly ministry, from the time of John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven. Nave's Topical Index. While he agrees with Gamaliel, Paul wants to protect that which he loves. Jesus Leadership Training, The Book of Enoch for Beginners: A Guide to Expand Your Understanding of the Biblical World. Scripture does not state whether Saul was or was not in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus crucifixion. But it begs the question Why would early Christians claim Rabban as one of their own? I would think that he would include that in his self-description as the chief of sinners. Paul says that he was taught by Gamaliel. Maybe there is someone I could bounce this off, to get some ideas. In fact, Paul describes himself as a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration within Judaism. We need to carry this out, with our own God-given abilities and talents, using the skills, and circumstances we have. Gymnasiums were built for these people who participated in game in which they engaged in sports naked. did I miss something? As to pauls seemingly at odds relationship with his teacher Gamaliel, it is no odd thing for a student to differ from a teacher, especially if the student is quite a zealous one. What was his first name? Paul claims in Philippians 3 to be a Hebrew of the Hebrews, some people take that as a saying we spoke Hebrew at home, not Greek or Aramaic. Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a witness with the Apostles of Jesus resurrection, which is what it means to be an Apostle. So they disagree with each other. God wants to welcome anyone into His family who has the desire to seek, follow, obey, trust, and love God. The Bible says clearly that Paul in his words said he was a Paharisee and he that he sat under the teachings of Gamaliel. Peter was from the school of Shammi and Shaul was clearly from Hillel and we see this when these two Pharisee argue with each other on various topics. [erase erase erase]. One of them responded to me QUOTE: In short you believe Paul is the Anti Christ.. Not a new theory Mostly just misunderstanding Pauls writings..He never preached to abolish The Torah thats a misunderstanding https://unashamedofjesus.org/2016/05/31/greatest-commandment/#comment-5642, The other one responded to me QUOTE: When you referred to Jesus words about the greatest commandment, you neglected to mention the context. And no one, not even Paul, ever said that all Scripture was equal. Gamaliel. The overwhelming internal evidence of The New Restament and mishnaic sources on the Schools of Shammai and of Hillel support the liklihood of Paul being from the School of Hillel. Note: ingrafted Gentiles were branches of the tree and not replacements of Israel of the entire tree (replacement theology). So being an Apostle of Jesus involves being sent by Jesus, yes. it was mandatory for all males at some point to go to yeshiva this applies to Yeshua and his disciples as well. Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Either way, by Acts logic every Christian should reject false doctrines but if a new teacher appears and preaches about God the One God, and is called a Prophet, if his mission is as wildly successful, sans the forced conversions Christianity depended on, IS FORBIDDEN at that, obviously Christians are the new Pharisees for rejecting and slandering Prophet Mohammed (saw) and adhering to oral traditions of their forefathers. I do not think that after conversion he started reading manuals of style in order to communicate better with Gentiles, he already was well aware of these styles because the were pervasive in the culture. My question is, is it too outrageous to see Pauls tendency (pre-conversion and post-conversion) as one that is either starting up a new hybrid of Jewish thought or a member of one of the smaller groups already formed? What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? This gets Paul in trouble and that section of Acts is basically a dissertation by Paul stating he never taught against the law but adheres to it. As much as I appreciate you keeping an almost 4 year old thread alive, you just do not contribute much to the conversation. I didnt know everything 7 years ago either but I have grown and learned new things about God and His Word in the past 7 years, as is normal for a growing believer. And one throne for that other guy named Peter. I meant to say for rejecting Mohammed (p) and worshipping a man who said worship God alone, Jesus (p), and adding a third God to the 1 and His son making a pagan Trinity, Christianity is anathema to its worshipped human founder (in name only and in Greek at that) who said OUR God is ONE worship HIM!. Phillip, thank you. But lets agree on a fact about what is written in the New Testament text. [erase erase erase], Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. Believe. I dont think hes involved in church much, but I could talk with that guy. Yes, 99.9% of Christians absolute gets Pauls writings wrong. Paul, before his conversion, tended to be more like the Shammaites in that he was fairly violent and full of persecution. The issue is that the massive influx of gentiles into the sect are causing problems by bringing in gentile customs, natural born Jews adhearing to traditions that contradict Torah. Plenty of time for him to get familiar with popular Greek culture in order to draw appropriate analogies. [Matthew, John, Revelation, 2 Peter NIV], Jesus is The Way to God The real Jesus of the real Apostles But false teachers come and pervert Gods Word With twists and turns and jostles, My sheep listen to my voice Jesus said for us all to hear I know them, and they follow me He doesnt run when a wolf appears, He calls his own sheep by name Its not the witchcraft of a distant stranger Not just repeating the magic words And then thinking you are out of danger, Our Father in Heaven wants to talk to you He can hear you loud and clear And He sent His Son Jesus to inhabit the earth So that all who want God can draw near, Real prayer is a conversation At least thats what God wants it to be We talk in the garden in the cool of the day When we are part of His family, Only Jesus never disobeyed God Hes the only immaculate conception The Holy Spirit comes in His Name Dont listen to the voice of deception, If a false apostle preaches I became your father, imitate me He doesnt speak the words of God Its just Boss Paul the Pharisee, And if a heretic now claims to be The Churchs universal pastor His words should be ignored They lead to nothing but disaster, Jesus did not just teach The Way He IS The Way, my friend Repeating the mantra of Marypaulhammad Is nothing but a dead end, Bibliography all quotes in quotation marks are the words of Jesus in the Gospel of John chapter 10. His epertise in Sitz im Leben however, if not normally impeccable, is usually of a high academic calibre indeed. Many self-professed Bible-believing Evangelicals wont listen to the words of Jesus, because they are brainwashed through reciting their mantra all scripture is God-breathed.. Paul, however, I think was so strongly devoted to the strict teachings of the Torah, that he had to fundamentally had to disagree with his teacher. If the Hillel tradition did not offer plasticity enough to justify Pauls missions against Christians, is it possible that Paul felt that he stayed basically faithful to Gamaliel/Hillels school and to mercy because the predominant number (majority of cases) of Pauls concrete cases against Christians did not require threats of death (i.e., how many Christians caved in?). The translation of his relics is observed on August 2 . Paul is not a liar; he just has a dual citizenship. Paul is a master of both and since you do not understand oral law, its lead you to believe that Paul is a Shammite of all things. I didnt think King Herod would knock you off so quickly. If you say we dont know enough, or it isnt clear, you are not familiar with the text of the New Testament. Contemporary Jewish records continue to list him first among the Sanhedrin.[24]. . Tobit is a good reference In the Babylonian Talmud, Zevahim 97b and 100b there are statements given in the name of Rabbi Akiva that in the case of an unclaimed body, if no one is attending to it, the responsibility for the buriasl of this corpse falls on this person, who must do it despite any obstacles, regardless if one is a High Priest or Nazirite, neither of whom are allowed to become tamei, ritually impure. But i am just speculating here. His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. Evidence for this more accommodating opinion is found in the book of Acts, although some (like Chilton) are not completely convinced Acts portrays Gamaliel accurately. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a short time. . Hello Pastor Thapa your problem is not unique to Nepal, people everywhere like to rank themselves above others. Why are you waiting, be of those who bow to Gods Will if you know that the Bible has lies in it and is corrupt, you must believe that a true religion exists in the world and isnt a secluded secret for the few who know! Wow, theyre dropping like flies. Had Paul studied under the great rabbi Gamaliel, he would have learnt the scriptures in the Hebrew lan. Something Paul preaches repeatedly. So what is the application of this parable? You cite NT Wright as describing the Shammaite Pharisee as a militant hard-liner that was not willing to work with Rome as long as they could study the Torah. I do not, however, see this as the case in the rest of the book of Acts, where Paul works the Roman system in his favor. Three hours, noon to 3 pm. Obviously, the New Testament Scriptures were not written when Jesus was walking the earth. There are some good reasons to investigate Pauls claim to have been educated by Gamaliel. The issue wasnt the Torah, the issue it was the corrupted law that man attached to the Torah. Paul being the prodigal student, as it were, and departing from his mentor to do whatever he wants, abandoning his teachings, and then returning later when he realizes how foolish he was. get up set if you want ,,but Paul was that , dont believe it ? Jesus calls us to Himself When The Show begins Were infants so He humors us Its Rocky and His Friends https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t-OzhlmvE. mostly ranting about people not studying the Bible and running around eith misunderstandings. This Evangelical Mantra has been accepted by the collective subconscious mind of The Evangelical Church without thought, question, reflection, or even 2 witnesses from the Scripture itself. For that matter, was he even n the observing crowd at the time of the 1st Pentecost speech by Peter? Since Paul clearly gives his yeshiva and his lineage, it shows he wasnt a Christian before and after Damascus. Were in a recession, the economy is terrible, jobs are scarce, immorality is rampant, and in many ways the country is falling apart. In 2019 he published a commentary. Only after the house is finished and the paint is dry can we go and paint the garage.. I keep wondering how far N.T. Gamaliel became a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish court in Jerusalem. But until 1956 he was Saint Gamaliel according to the Catholic Churchs Roman Martyrology. Galatians: Freedom through Gods Grace (Wipf & Stock, 2019). Here are answers to 2 common objections: .a) What about the so-called Golden Rule? . Study with Quizlet and memorize flashcards containing terms like Definition of 'epistle', 5 Common Denominators of an Epistle, T/F - Christ is a relationship not a religion and more. It would be like me claiming that I was educated in worship by Marco Barrientos at Christ for the Nations in Dallas Texas he is the worship leader famous in Spanish Language Charismatic Christian circles for his song based on Isaiah 11:9 Ser Llena la Tierra https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Is it true? The commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not covet, and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this ONE RULE: Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. The second passage refers to Paul. Acts 26:4. Paint the house first, and Ill stay in the garage until youre done. Polhil states that perhaps around the age of fourteen to sixteen Paul went to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), (30). How many times did Jesus speak to Paul? Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. The Apostle John recorded about the New Jerusalem, The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. [Revelation 21:14], The Apostles are 12 faithful eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, and Matthias is the 12th. But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. Well considering I am infact Jewish I dont need your advice on what I should read. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. The Middle East is very unstable. This is the reason why Yeshua said that Pharisee should be the the ones teaching. 5:7) Paul takes a Nazarite vow, validate his claim that he doesnt teach against Torah and upholds it. I know from the Scriptures that Paul Worship is wrong, but the entire Church Establishment says its right.

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